Picky Eating Isn’t a Phase | The Root Causes of Food Refusal with Lena Livinsky

Maggie (00:03.314)
It's just a phase. Your picky eaters will grow out of it and they'll be fine. But are they getting the nutrition that they need? And is it really just a phase? Welcome to Women Folk Revival, where we are deeply rooted and wildly intentional. I'm Aggie.

Meara (00:23.177)
Mira. Today on Women Folk Revival we're sitting down with Lena Levinsky. Lena is a holistic pediatric feeding specialist and speech language pathologist who is helping mothers move out of pressure and into trust. Lena, we're so glad you're here.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (00:37.774)
Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Maggie (00:38.281)
Yes, welcome.

Likewise. So let's go ahead and get into the story behind the mission and what you do on a daily basis.

Maggie (01:01.898)
She is frozen. Yep.

Meara (01:02.521)
Listen.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (01:04.782)
You guys got really choppy for a second. Am I choppy? Okay. Okay. For a second, like you were robotic. I heard the question, which is good. Okay. Cause I'm not just like sitting here like, sorry. I would just like, oh, where'd go? Okay. Yeah. So I've been a speech language pathologist for 14 years now, which is crazy to think about. And

Meara (01:09.081)
Nope, there you are.

Maggie (01:09.948)
No, you're back. You are frozen.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (01:28.542)
I got into this space because I wanted to work with people in a way that helps. And speech came into my life. It was something I heard about my junior year of college because I really didn't have direction of what I wanted to do. And that field kind of presented itself. And it was interesting enough where I felt, OK, well, this is really cool because I get to maybe work with kids with disabilities or adults with disabilities. So I thought, OK, this is like a

A great field, I think I can go into it. But I've always had this kind of feeling where I want it to be a little bit more medically based or I want it to help with healing as well. So initially I wanted to bridge that by working in a hospital setting as an SOP and I thought I would never want to work with kids just because...

I was never like the fun person blowing bubbles and things like that. And I was like, it sounds awful. I don't want to do this. Like, I'm not doing that. So I was like, adults, adults, adults. But then as I went through school, I did my two years of grad school, I started to work in pediatrics because that's where I could get a job. There is a lot more openings in the pediatric space than in adult space. And I thought, OK, well, I'll eventually transition. But I really never did.

Maggie (02:24.202)
You

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (02:50.038)
Eventually I started to fall in love with the pediatric field, so I stayed there. And my only bridge really with pediatrics was feeding. So I started to really get into it, and I started to be passionate about it, and I started to really like the field, and all my schooling that I did, any continuing education that I did was always kind of feeding oriented. Because like I said from the beginning, I never really liked working with that language aspect of just excited play and stuff like that.

It was just never my thing. So that was kind of my bridge. And I worked as a feeding specialist for a long time, but with this perspective that I learned in school and at work, which is very behavioral based, we do look at the oral motor component and swallowing component of feeding, which is a big part here often, but everything else that was kind of looking at the whole body, the whole child.

Maggie (03:19.978)
Thank

Meara (03:41.944)
Hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (03:47.916)
That was never taught to me in any way, shape or form. But then I had my son who turned out to be a picky eater. So I tried all my behavioral approaches. I tried. I tried to get him to get excited about food. I tried to redirect him. I tried to do some positive reinforcement, some negative reinforcement. I tried to make food fun and present it in different ways. And I felt miserable.

I mean nothing was working for him. None of these approaches were appropriate and that's essentially what I did with most of my clients because that's what I learned kind of like an ABA based feeding therapy. That's what's recommended oftentimes. I mean, I'm sure people have different approaches, but this is like the general traditional approach. So it wasn't working and it was interesting to me. I think because I was dealing with postpartum depression and things in the midst of all of that.

Meara (04:25.612)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (04:42.176)
where I wasn't clearly thinking about this. So it took me a little while to connect this approach, which is holistically based. And this is something that I've been studying for years for my own autoimmune issues and things like that. I went through so many different diets and lifestyle changes, trying to heal from psoriasis and some other issues. it was interesting how I didn't connect it at first, but eventually I did where

I was like, well, why am I not looking at him like that? Why am I not trying different things that could possibly contributing here? Maybe it's diet, maybe it's something else. So I started to dig in. started to research. I started to look at the literature and start to learn more about the gut and start to learn more about what's underneath picky eating. What are some root causes? And I started to bring it all together. And yeah, and I've been passionate about it ever since because it made a difference in my child and my different clients I've worked with.

Meara (05:11.768)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (05:13.194)
Hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (05:38.67)
because I really do think picky eating needs to have this root cause approach because it's just a symptom. It's a symptom of something else happening in the body. So I hope this answers your question. I know what I'm not saying there.

Meara (05:44.556)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (05:48.557)
Yeah, it does. It's pretty amazing how everything just aligned so perfectly for you, just leading you into that one direction. What was that initial aha moment for you when you realized that biology had to come before behavior?

Maggie (05:55.219)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (06:06.03)
So I was actually feeding my son dinner. it was something he has had before. was just chicken with avocado, stuff that was a safe food. Because he was picky, like I said. So we weren't super exciting with trying different things. It was just his safe food. So was chicken and avocado, stuff he's had before. And he took a bite of it that night or that evening, and he spit it out again. So I was like, ugh.

like what is going on? I got so frustrated there and I was really ready to blow at him because I was dealing with my own like burnout and working all day and just trying, just trying to survive as a mom. And I looked at him, I remember, and I just finally saw him and I was like, well, you're not trying to be a little brat. You're stressed as hell right now. Like you were so stressed out in that moment. I could see it in his body and he was waiting for my reaction.

Meara (06:40.557)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (06:55.564)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (07:01.614)
And he gagged with the chicken too and there were so many different things happening at once and I was like you're not trying to be difficult like so I started to think about this like What is underneath all of this? What's causing you so much stress buddy? You know and that was kind of like my moment this realization Just just finally connecting the dots when I looked at him and that situation

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (07:27.118)
You

Maggie (07:27.145)
I've had so many of those moments and I've never stopped to myself and and thought about it in that way. just I'm so perplexed because I have two picky eaters and they'll They eat, you know, let's just say five different things and then all of a sudden one day they They just throw one out and won't eat anymore. And I'm like, but this is your favorite you love this and I always make it for you and

Meara (07:38.616)
you

Maggie (07:55.935)
and just ends and they won't replace it with anything and then now they're down to four. But I've never stopped to think, you know, something is going on with them. I just think this picky eating is becoming even pickier and it's, it just, it drives me crazy.

Meara (08:14.914)
For everyone to know, Maggie, how old are your picky eaters currently that you're still going through this one?

Maggie (08:19.754)
eight and almost five. My middle child will eat anything. I, and they've all, they've all been raised, you know, the same way. And I, I don't know, but I do know, I don't want to get into this just yet because I do want to touch base on something that we spoke about, in our meeting with you, Lena. And that is when you brought up environmental factors.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (08:36.097)
Yeah.

Maggie (08:49.002)
that are also coming into play with children and causing them to be picky eaters. So can you tell us more about that and how our modern life is preventing our children and their bodies growing and thriving the way that they were designed to?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (09:12.876)
Yeah, well, there's definitely a lot to say there, and it's hard to even touch on everything. But we come into contact with about 80,000 different chemicals every single day, right? Whether it's the stuff they're spreading from the sky, whether it's our furniture, whether it's our food, whether it's just the water, the air, there's just so many different ways. Our clothing, there's just not enough regulation to keep the bad things out. There is not enough regulation.

Maggie (09:24.703)
Hmm.

Meara (09:36.993)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (09:42.671)
And I think we sometimes don't connect the dots that this is causing a chronic disease epidemic in our kids, right? We're overusing antibiotics. are encouraging C-sections, which I know we're gonna touch on later. We're encouraging it because it's convenient oftentimes. That's not always the case, but I just spoke to a mom at a birthday party two weeks ago and she was like, I'm really stressed about birth.

Meara (09:52.824)
huge.

Maggie (09:54.196)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (09:59.829)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (10:02.882)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (10:10.84)
I have my C-section scheduled already and I'm like, I have so much to say, but it's not always a time and place to bring it all up. There's a lot of repercussions because of the way that we live and the stress. I feel like the lifestyle, as humans, as women, we are wired to live in a community to...

Meara (10:14.433)
Yeah.

Meara (10:23.874)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (10:35.842)
have help from other people, not to be working in a nine to five and then caring for our kids in the midst of it or after school or whatever it is. I feel like we have been taken that kind of away, that biological need that we have as women to take care of our kids and to have a household. it's not an option anymore. And I think that puts us into fight or flight. And then that...

Meara (10:58.178)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (11:02.968)
further transfers over to our kids in some way. it's just the environment. It's very different from what kids are biologically wired into need, right? Like kind of to have this nuclear family near them, especially mom, to really help them. So I just feel like the environment in general, it's not meant to be for raising healthy kids and happy kids anymore. And every household is different.

Meara (11:06.336)
yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (11:32.814)
There's just so many different things that we need to be thinking about now to mitigate some of these things. Right? And we have some amazing moms who are very aware and who are trying their hardest, but it's just, I feel like the world is a little bit, not to sound grim, but it's a little bit against us.

Maggie (11:39.306)
video.

Meara (11:50.09)
It's totally-

Maggie (11:50.507)
I think it's very against us. I stay at home with my children and in homeschool. So we have a slower pace life than most people, but I still feel the stress every day that I'm not contributing to the income. And my husband obviously wants me home because we don't want our kids in...

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (12:01.517)
Yeah.

Meara (12:02.274)
Pace life,

Maggie (12:19.368)
school and we don't want them in daycare. But I, you know, it's a constant stress of doing everything on my own and making sure the house works and it's clean and the kids are fed and taken care of. And it's a struggle of feeding them because I've got two picky eaters that just won't eat anything. how can I, and I'm coming up with all these recipes, like how can I sneak more into these specific foods and then it's more time consuming and

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (12:42.702)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (12:46.868)
There's so much, even if you do stay home with your children and live that sort of life, there isn't the community. you know, the world doesn't talk about that.

Meara (12:58.272)
And that's why we're here. And I'm so glad you brought that up, Lena, because Maggie and I can't stress enough in all of our podcast episodes that this is what we're here for. We're here to help build that community, to try and help take some of that ease off of other mothers. And even if you're not a mother, other women in general, because the pressure from society is just so great that it just keeps compressing down on us. And my lifestyle is a bit different. I work 52 hours a week. I'm a nurse and I work third shift and my husband.

Maggie (13:00.71)
No.

Maggie (13:10.558)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (13:27.306)
is now transitioning from 312s on the weekend to who will be working all week, Monday through Friday. So I too am taking care of the kids, trying to homestead, trying to, they're not in school, they're in online school, but trying to transition them even out of online school, and now I have to transition into a new position, so I'm just, it's nuts. And this transferring of stress from parent to child is real.

Maggie (13:53.46)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (13:54.317)
And you can see that in their diet. And you see that in how they handle things, the mental load they take on, which I also think has a lot to do with how they are able to digest things as far as eating goes. But yeah, it's crazy. There's no village. We're trying to build the village. So yeah, we do.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (14:15.118)
We need it. We really need it. It gives us safety, right? And once mom feels safe, that, you are really like the mama duck, right? In the house, like you're the one who sets the tone for so many different things in the house, like how it flows, the energy, how it flows. So I think it's so important to have that as a woman.

Meara (14:19.992)
It does.

Meara (14:25.826)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (14:29.644)
We are.

Mm-hmm.

Maggie (14:33.482)
Yeah, and the skills to actually follow it through. Yes, I do. Because so like I said, I have two picky eaters. I have three children and two of them are and all three of my nieces were who are older than my children and my mom and my sister, my sister-in-law, they're like, it's just a phase. Our kids went through that too and you know, they just grow out of it.

Meara (14:35.734)
It really is. Maggie, you wanted to touch base on C-section. Yes.

Maggie (15:03.346)
and then when we spoke, you mentioned the caesarian and I'm like, wait a minute. All of my nieces were born from caesarians and all of mine were as well. So that to me right there just says, obviously there's a connection and it has to do with the gut essentially from, from that. Can you tell us more about that?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (15:26.764)
Yeah, well, when babies are born naturally, they go through the vaginal canal. And there are birth microbes that are in that moment being planted from the mom. And when you have people in perfect health, which they're still out there, not in the Western world, unfortunately. It's very rare to have them in the Western world. But there is ancient tribes who still live off the land, and they've preserved their culture.

and they kind of stay with how they have lived for thousands of years, these people have perfect health. They're being studied, and so they might have 200 birth microbes. That's ideal, around 200. But for us as women, we perhaps might not have as many, but still, as the baby is born, you're planting these microbes and collecting them and introducing them to your body as a baby.

And the birth microbes is really what's crucial for us for our health, because they have so many different functions that they play within our body, just so many different ones. There is about 200 of them, and each one of them has countless functions of what it does for our health in general. So I feel like because of the C-section, unfortunately, kids, they're losing.

They're birth microbes. They're just not being passed on from mom to baby. And because of it, the gut is impacted, right? Because healthy gut, I feel like we're just in the infant stages of understanding what it really means for us. And we have so many microbiomes, right? It's not just the gut. Like, our skin has a microbiome. Our eyes have a microbiome. Our lungs have a microbiome. So there's so many microbes within our body that we need to have. And the birth microbes are really, really crucial.

Maggie (17:05.034)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (17:19.982)
So when you are born without them, you're essentially already setting yourself up for poor health in some way. So not to sound so grim where whoever had a C-section, you know, baby or came as a C-section, like you're to be sick for rest of your life. No, there's, there actually, are scientists and providers that are working on trying to replant some of those. And some of them, unfortunately, when they're airborne, like

they die. So there is a lot of science that needs to go into it. But there is some that you already can replant, which is amazing. But I do think because of that microbiome, which is unfortunately already affected from birth, then down the road, we're seeing these issues. And some of them may manifest as picky eating.

Meara (18:12.386)
So Lena, I have a quick question for those who don't understand how we transfer those microbiomes. From what I understand, another thing, my firstborn, he ended up having some issues. He had apraxia, he had traumatic birth, and that was vaginal. I had five births following that due to shoulder dystocia, having to have cesareans, and I did try to have a VBAC, but that was impossible. One, out of all my kids are picky eaters, but.

That's not what I'm getting at. My question is for those who don't understand microbiomes, I do understand from what I understand when we come out vaginally, our head, when the baby comes out, the head, you know, goes overlaps and there's like a rush of probiotics for one that goes through their body that they're missing when we have cesareans to the microbiome you're talking about. Is that when they're coming out vaginally that they get those microbiomes when coming through the vagina through the birth canal? if you could just, so I just wanted to,

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (18:59.682)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (19:07.458)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (19:11.242)
explain that a bit so that people would understand because they might be like, well, how are you transferring those microbiomes to the kids? Yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (19:17.129)
Yeah. Well, that's a good question. I don't know exactly. It's not my area of expertise. But as you said, if you think about this, when the baby goes through the vaginal canal, the canal is pretty long. So along the way, there is a lot of probiotics and microbes that they are able to digest or come in contact with through the skin as you're going through it.

Meara (19:29.27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (19:43.747)
When you have a C-section, first of all, you're getting antibiotics. So you already are at a disadvantage there because you already are killing some of these microbes or putting them to sleep, essentially. Some of them are able to be brought back later. But you already are at a disadvantage because you're already getting antibiotics, which is preventative, which is understandable. But then you're also not going through a root canal, so you're not able to go

Maggie (19:49.514)
you

Maggie (19:54.717)
than everything.

Meara (20:01.208)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (20:12.206)
get any of these probiotics that are there, the birth microbes that are specifically, I just feel like our bodies were created perfectly by God and this is how it was designed to happen. So when we are being pulled from, you know, the stomach, it's just very different.

Meara (20:21.74)
They sure were.

Maggie (20:22.442)
They were

Meara (20:30.326)
I don't recommend it. had a, I had a, I can't remember which child it was, but when I went in and they said, well, we're gonna need to, you're gonna need to go and have a C-section. We're not gonna do V-back. There's no chance that we would even do it. She said, well, I'm, this nurse or the doctor herself said, well, I wouldn't, I've never had kids and I would never have a vaginal delivery. would always opt for a C-section. Well, for one, that was terrible bedside manners because here I am.

Maggie (20:32.82)
my god.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (20:34.668)
Yeah.

Meara (20:57.696)
emotional not being able to ever have that chance again. And two, has, you guys, you have no idea for those of you who have not had children yet or who are planning on having a C-section, all that goes through, that is a major surgery. They're cutting through so many layers of skin. But for those who have to, you shouldn't feel ashamed either because you're still giving birth. It's still life, you're giving birth too. But that's not something that I would elect at all. It's very dangerous.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (21:00.754)
Wow.

Maggie (21:14.548)
Hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (21:18.19)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Maggie (21:24.444)
I would not wish a cesarean on my worst enemy. It is absolutely horrific and... no. There's just...

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (21:27.918)
Yeah. And then you have a few weeks maybe for recovery in this country, if you're lucky. I don't understand that the women who don't have time off and then they have to go back to work after a year. And I'm just like, so many things. But I do want to say one thing, though. I had a home birth with my son. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. And he's my only one so far.

Maggie (21:35.07)
Yeah. Yes.

Meara (21:36.525)
Yeah.

Meara (21:47.384)
How blessed.

Maggie (21:48.586)
It's awesome.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (21:54.337)
It's rare for a first-timer to have a home birth. It was very long. I was exhausted, but it worked out. But he still was a picky eater though, right? So it's not necessarily a measure of just a C-section for a child to be picky or have different chronic issues. I think because he came from my microbiome, which was missing a bunch of stuff because

Meara (21:59.683)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (22:03.476)
Mm-hmm. Just see.

Maggie (22:08.319)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (22:12.088)
Sure.

Meara (22:20.44)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (22:21.058)
Before I had him, I was vegan for three years, which I'm not going to get into that for too long, but that for me, it ruined my health. So I didn't have enough time to recover. I think I had about a year and I didn't know what I was doing in that time to even rebuild my microbiome. And also at that time, I thought that I didn't need to supplement anything because I was getting everything from food.

Meara (22:24.602)
wow. Okay.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (22:46.316)
I wasn't taking any prenatals or any type of supplementation. I was not going outside in the sun. I was just not prepped for birth. So I think that's why I had such, this is just my idea. That's why I had such bad postpartum depression. And I think that's why my son is having some chronic issues right now too, just because I wasn't ready for him and I gave him everything I had and it wasn't too much. But I think, yeah.

Meara (22:48.353)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (23:10.422)
Mm-hmm. I-

I do know that for women who've had chronic depression prior to getting pregnant are more prone to having postpartum depression after they have their children. I do know that.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (23:24.076)
Yeah, I didn't have a question before though. I think, yeah.

Meara (23:28.78)
Yeah. Well, I think postpartum depression, I think every, I think everybody has a touch of postpartum depression in one way or another. It just depends on how you're able to handle it because my gosh, having children is hard. But mine was amplified almost to the point where I needed, I felt like I needed to go back on antidepressants and they said it was most likely amplified by that because of you having a prior history of depression, which makes sense. But also I wanted to,

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (23:37.518)
Bye.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (23:57.518)
It does.

Meara (23:58.541)
Bring up the fact real quick that, Meggie, you don't eat much meat either, right?

Maggie (24:03.21)
I don't and I will say I years ago I guess probably about nine years ago I my husband and I we had tried for five years to get pregnant and I was not getting pregnant and then I went on a plant-based diet and Several months into that we were not trying to get pregnant anymore. I got pregnant and

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (24:31.32)
Mm-hmm.

Maggie (24:32.254)
I think, and I've never felt better in my entire life than when I was on this, but I will say, I despise the carnivore diet because I just, I'm not a huge meat person and that just sounds gross. And I just think, you know, what did God intend? And I don't think God intended for us to eat nothing but meat. And I don't think that plants are trying to kill us. But I will say,

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (24:36.014)
Yeah.

Meara (24:45.496)
Okay.

I do that.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (24:58.274)
I think we can have a whole discussion here.

Maggie (25:00.988)
I will say that those those diets I think can be very good for you and in short periods of time. But I think the biggest reason. Yeah. But I think the biggest reason for that is because you're cutting out all of the processed foods and you're cutting out all of the added sugars and things and, you know, all the crap that we should not be eating. So if we just talk to, you know, a plant based diet.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (25:11.31)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (25:11.746)
cycles.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (25:18.85)
Yes, exactly.

Meara (25:20.727)
Sure.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (25:25.314)
Yeah.

Maggie (25:29.84)
mixed with a carnivore diet, then we'd probably be, you know, good to go, right?

Meara (25:35.02)
I keep trying to get her to eat meat, but here at Women Folk Revival we're all about... She does.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (25:35.352)
Yeah.

Maggie (25:38.322)
I hate me. It's gross to have a lot in your body.

Meara (25:42.776)
We're all about simplicity and connection here. So how can a busy mom implement feeding our children without feeling overwhelmed? Like what is the hands-on system that you found that actually works?

Maggie (25:43.796)
you

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (25:45.506)
Yeah, yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (25:58.255)
That's a really good question and I don't know if you're going to love my answer, animal-based stuff for sure, as a basis. Yeah, it's true though, it's true. So when I was working through my own health issues, I started on the GAPS diet and it was a mixed diet. It wasn't just animal-based, but it started very heavily with the meat-based soup.

Meara (26:04.216)
Meat!

Meara (26:11.224)
Go Teen!

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (26:26.03)
And that soup was transformative for my health and it has been for so many different people as well. Everybody has different dietary needs, but I do believe our gut, our microbes and just in general our body, it thrives on meat because we're able to digest it very well. We're meant to have it. There are so many minerals and vitamins that are just nutritionally dense.

What I want is for us to have nutritionally dense food to be the focus of the plate. Because with plants, what I'm finding is that, you know, of course, some of them are amazing. I do think there is a time and place and they have different roles that they play. But I have started to learn so much about lectins in plants and oxalates in plants and different plant toxins.

Meara (26:55.053)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (27:19.304)
Excellent.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (27:21.326)
So that's my biggest issue with plants is that so many of them have these plant toxins that are unfortunately disruptive to our bodies. So this is why, you know, when you are trying to build up the reserves of different, you know, things that you were depleted in, for example, zinc is big for picky eaters. Typically, a lot of them are depleted in zinc. And I can even say with my son, I have been supplementing it.

Meara (27:43.307)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (27:50.843)
with him specifically, and I see a huge difference when I supplement huge in terms of sensory, his sensory problems, right? he used to be very sensitive to sounds and textures and everything else. And once I start to supplement him, then, you know, it's night and day night and day difference. So, you know, the richest foods that have a lot of these, minerals and vitamins that our kids are severely depleted in.

Meara (27:53.898)
A huge difference as far as what? Okay.

Meara (28:14.3)
wow.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (28:20.462)
typically as picky eaters, come most readily available from animal-based products, right? You're just never going to have a complete. Many for once, like zinc oysters are the best thing. It's usually they're the richest in zinc, but how many kids are eating oysters? I'm not either. I try to, but it's just not my thing. But like red meat, red meat in general, I feel like it is just so nutritionally dense. So for me,

Meara (28:28.8)
Is there a specific animal?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (28:50.254)
I like to talk about that. But sometimes even just the meat based meat stock, it just has so much, so many minerals, so many vitamins, collagen and what's the second one? Let's see, collagen and keratin and so many different things that are just so rich. I have to tell you, so for me personally, like I said, I had postpartum depression and when I started to work on my health,

From that perspective, before that, my emotions were flat. Like, I was just not happy and not sad. It felt like robotic. Two weeks of being on that meat stock, I started to feel highs and lows again of emotions. And to me, it was like a reset button. So I don't think there is one particular best diet for one person that I would say like, everybody be carnivore.

Meara (29:24.024)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (29:47.681)
Everybody go on gaps, like, no, but I do think it's something to consider just because of our biology. Like, we do not have to ferment. like, the food, animal-based food is just so absorbed within our body typically. And there is new ones there. But like, plants, they need to ferment and process. And sometimes we're just not able to handle that. So for I do believe that's one of the

Meara (30:07.97)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (30:16.492)
the biggest thing I would say to busy moms, prioritize nutrient dense nutrition so we can really start to address some of these underlying factors that causing picky eating.

Meara (30:27.92)
Wow, that's amazing that you bring that up actually. My husband is from the Middle East and he is like obsessed with the stocks. Like we do beef. He'll slow cook the beef with the bones for 24 hours. Like it's a thing. And then he's like, here, drink this. So after I had the baby, he's like, drink this stock. And I'm like, this is so gross. I don't want to drink this stuff. had it like in freezer and glass bottles. I'm like, this is weird, but.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (30:44.27)
Thank you.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (30:48.782)
Yeah.

Maggie (30:49.61)
You

Meara (30:54.934)
It's interesting you bring that up because I haven't had any issues after the last couple of times we've had our last two children. But here I am drinking this beef stock and chicken stock for those parents who are like, well, I don't have time to think of this. Listen, if you put your food in a slow cook over day and some water and broth with some garlic and you know all that, my kids are obsessed with this broth. So it doesn't take much out of you to prepare. Just throw it in a pot with water and let it sit overnight.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (31:01.964)
Yeah.

Maggie (31:14.665)
Hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (31:18.624)
Yes, amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. And it could be shorter than that too, because I think your husband's making bone broth, which is amazing, so nutritionally dense, with meat on it. Yes. That is, a little bit harder to digest for some people who have gut issues than meat stock. Meat stock is cooked a little bit less, so it's less histamine heavy. So yes.

Meara (31:27.668)
Yep. With meat on it. Yes.

Meara (31:38.904)
Mm-hmm.

Meara (31:43.545)
so it depends on the length? Because I do chicken noodle soup, but I boil the heck out of it for two hours and then we eat it. Would that, is that an example? Okay. okay.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (31:48.833)
Yes, exactly. That's a meat stock. Right. And you want to have a bone because it's different properties and you want to have some meat as well. Love it. Love it. Add into Oregon's all of it. I know Maggie, you're probably like, my God. Get her offline.

Meara (31:56.077)
Yeah, I cook the whole chicken in there and make that the stock and then I add the like noodles and stuff.

I don't know about all the organs.

Maggie (32:04.584)
No, I eat meat and I eat all different kinds. I don't eat pork, but I love meat. I love steak and burgers. I just can't have a lot of it in my body at one time. I could not survive on just eating a lot of meat.

Meara (32:12.74)
neither do I.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (32:20.832)
Yeah. Yeah. I don't want, yeah, I don't think I could be carnivore either. I mean, maybe for short periods of time. But some people thrive on it. Some people thrive on it. But then you have these different ways of prepping carnivore. Like you make carnivore pizza and carnivore bread. And you know, I mean, there's dairy and different things that you can add in. Yeah.

Meara (32:29.942)
It gets nasty over time, you get sick.

Maggie (32:31.988)
Let's see.

Meara (32:43.298)
Well, Meg, you can dabble in that because you're starting to do recipes now for your kids who are picky, adding different things to like pizzas that you're making, right?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (32:50.742)
Yeah, I love, I love carnivore pizza. It's so yummy.

Maggie (32:50.941)
Yeah, I-

Meara (32:54.68)
You

Maggie (32:55.014)
I, my daughter is not a big meat eater. My son really isn't either. They'll have chicken nuggets, which I hate giving them, but it's, that's just one thing where I can get in a lot of protein. But I want to start adding beans to sauces and the nutritional yeast you can add. And that's very nutrient dense.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (33:10.081)
Yeah

Maggie (33:24.138)
You know, spinach, chopping it up, hiding it in sauces and just adding things in here and there. And we dry a lot of our vegetables that we grow and make them into powders. And we'll sprinkle that on as well. Ground flax, chia seeds. So those are both very nutrient dense.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (33:37.016)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (33:43.183)
Yeah, but they also have lot of toxins in them though, I would say. Spinach especially, it's so high in oxalates that it just, it's one of the top oxalate foods out there. So if I was to do greens, I would probably do like romaine lettuce or arugula or something. I don't think I'm gonna eat, spinach should be made with dairy to neutralize some of the oxalates in it. Cause that's the thing, like as our different ancient

Meara (33:48.983)
really? yeah, yeah.

Meara (34:07.339)
Okay.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (34:12.174)
groups that are still out there or they're not ancient, they're still alive, but they've been kind of keeping up with their traditions for so long. You know, they know how to neutralize some of these toxins. So the Incas in Peru, they knew how to neutralize the potatoes because they have to go through like a five-step process to get the lectins out and get different plant toxins out, right? And we do not know how to do that. That art of toxin neutralization has been lost.

So that's why some of these foods become so toxic to us because we do not know how to handle them. So unfortunately, spinach is definitely one of those foods. Like in order to neutralize some of this toxins in it, because it's really high in toxins, you need to mix it with dairy. So like spinach cream, that was created for a reason. And it's not the perfect way to cook it either. But unfortunately, I feel like as we're getting sicker and sicker, these are the things we need to start.

Meara (34:45.24)
Wow.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (35:10.508)
to think about. Yeah.

Meara (35:11.288)
looking into. I didn't know that.

Maggie (35:12.34)
Do you know much about like wild greens? Like if I were to add, let's just say dandelion leaves or do you know? Mary gets on me all the time. I'm obsessed with dandelions.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (35:19.149)
Yeah.

Meara (35:19.8)
Just

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (35:21.523)
I'm very so funny.

Meara (35:25.528)
I'm obsessed with the animal art.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (35:28.216)
think then my dad is too, like he just made tea. He went to the meat stock conference with me. I think there's definitely uses for it. I don't know how high it is in oxalate content. Do you guys know Sally K. Norton? She talks about oxalates a ton. Like plant toxins are her jam, essentially. So she has a book called Toxic Superfoods. so she lists.

Meara (35:46.456)
Mm-mm.

Meara (35:49.954)
Okay.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (35:57.891)
the different foods and how oxalate heavy they are, and which are a lot less plant toxin heavy. And she talks about how to cook them and how to process them. And I think it's great because when you wanna continue with the vegetables, and I do, I love my broccoli, I love my cauliflower, I love my carrots, I love carrots, but they can also be oxalate heavy. So I wanna make sure I'm processing them correctly, and onions and garlic and stuff, and knowing.

Meara (36:22.774)
Okay.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (36:26.806)
So if I'm having a ton of carrots in a day, and I know they have oxalates in them, maybe I'm not going to have a sweet potato on top of it, which is another big offender, unfortunately. And I love sweet potatoes. I'm going eat potatoes and spinach for little time.

Maggie (36:39.816)
I just, I'm at a new point where I just feel like I really know nothing about food when I feel like I was getting a handle on it.

Meara (36:47.148)
Well, that's why she's here.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (36:47.15)
It can feel like that. It can feel like that. But you know what? I always think about like, what did my grandparents do? Right? What did my great grandparents do? Because I feel like they knew, even though they knew so much less because they didn't have Instagram in front of them and Google, they knew so much more. They respected the land. Right? And I do think seasonal living is the biggest key.

Meara (36:51.554)
Yeah.

Meara (37:09.176)
but they knew how to not have diseases. Yeah.

Maggie (37:11.594)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (37:16.744)
so if you are going to have strawberries, make it when they're available around you, make it when they're growing at local farms. So you're not getting them from Mexico in December. you know, it's just, that's a very different strawberry than the one I'm going to go pick in a farm next door. So I do think just being mindful of that, because I know we're talking about overwhelmed moms and we're all, feel like overwhelmed moms. don't know there's a mom in the world who's not overwhelmed. If you are.

Maggie (37:21.162)
during season.

Meara (37:27.704)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Meara (37:33.09)
sure.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (37:45.614)
please write me a letter. I wanna know more about your life. Yes. I wanna know your secret.

Meara (37:46.976)
Yeah, we need your secret sauce.

Maggie (37:49.514)
They're the ones that are living in those tribes you were speaking of that still live off the land and in communities.

Meara (37:52.386)
They are, they are. They're stressed too, but for different reasons. Yeah, yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (37:56.919)
Yeah, no, for sure. It's impossible. mean, stress is also very motivating, right? It doesn't all have to be bad. But I feel like, essentially, for the busy moms, really think about that. Making sure your plate is as nutrient dense as it can be. That means don't neglect the animal-based. Even if you don't love having a lot of meat, how about cooking your veggies in butter or in ghee? A ton of it.

Meara (38:23.121)
gosh.

Maggie (38:23.551)
yeah, I'm heavy on the butter. Yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (38:26.55)
A ton of it, right?

Meara (38:27.19)
I just gave my kid a piece of butter with some Baja salt on it, because she was begging me for it earlier.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (38:32.302)
Yeah, oh my God, my son craves butter. Like nobody's business. Like he could just have it by the pound. And here's a trick I've been doing, because I can't find A2 butter. We want to be from A2 dairy to be more ready to digest. It's just a little bit more nutrient dense. So I've been buying heavy cream from like a really good farm, and I've been making my own. And it's been so good. Oh my gosh, so good. But yeah, kids love it. And our kids will tell us. They're craving things for a reason, right?

Meara (38:50.04)
and make it. Yep.

Meara (38:55.649)
It really good.

Meara (39:00.994)
Yep, they tell us, their body tells us.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (39:02.03)
And oftentimes it's unfortunately the bad guys in their gut telling them what they want to eat. But there is also these cravings because their nutrients depleted. So you're like, oh, OK, you want a lot of butter. Why? So yeah, I hope this didn't overwhelm me more. I'm sorry.

Meara (39:14.796)
Yeah. Maggie, want? No, it didn't. Well, I think it did, but in a good sense of now we know where to get more information and what to look for. And for the moms out there, don't stress about this. It's it's a lot. And even for us, it's a lot. Maggie and I, know, like Lena said, it just starts small. One one small thing goes a long way. So, Maggie, you wanted to ask? Yes, you wanted to ask her about stepping out of pressure and back in a dress.

Maggie (39:22.047)
Yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (39:34.626)
Yeah, one small thing. Exactly. Microstep.

Maggie (39:45.798)
yeah, I did. I'm sorry. I keep thinking. What was the name that you mentioned? Sally K. Norton. Okay.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (39:50.848)
Sally Kay Norton.

Meara (39:51.553)
Maggie will have her book by the end of the night. Maggie's a book lover. Yes.

Maggie (39:55.946)
Why?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (39:57.275)
You should, you should. It's very informative and it's finally the information that I feel like it's not being shared by the mainstream media. Why are they pushing so many veggies on us and so much fruit? Why is that the, you know, I always questioned the narrative a little bit. I don't know.

Meara (40:04.204)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Right. Mm. Yep.

Maggie (40:06.218)
Yeah.

Maggie (40:13.758)
Yes, we need. Yeah, we just we're at that that stage. And I think everyone's waking up to that where we just need to start questioning absolutely everything. So so your work, your work helps mothers step out of the pressure and into trust. But what does that what does that look like to stop policing, you know, the dinner plate and start connecting with our children during meal times? And is that a big factor in helping them?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (40:23.757)
Yeah.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (40:40.834)
Mmm.

Maggie (40:43.325)
overcome picky eating?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (40:45.642)
Yeah, I think it is. I really do think so. In my framework, I talk about different areas we should be looking at. And I picture it as a big tree, right? But at the trunk of that tree is connection. I really do believe when we're more connected with our kids, first of all, we're able to help them regulate better because we're starting to get a little bit on their level and really think about their particular needs.

But also we're starting to observe our kids better. So we're able to look at these symptoms that come up. Like, why is my child craving butter every day at three? Or something like that. We're starting to connect things. Why does he have a rash after eating eggs? Like, where is that coming from? We start to kind of connect and observe. But when we do, and as moms, we have this very special bond with our kids.

you know, creates oxytocin in us when we're starting to connect with them, whether it's through a hug or through getting on the floor and eye contact and playing with them. So it gives us the feel good chemical and it gives the baby, the child, the feel good chemical that they're craving. Because once they're showing up at the table, more connected, more relaxed, their nervous system is more regulated, they're going to show up at the table different versus when we're just

Meara (41:51.692)
Mm-hmm.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (42:08.034)
kind of rushing and focusing on the food. Let me get the broccoli and the cauliflower and this in front of them. Maybe they'll try it today, you know? And we're running, running, running, running. You know, that disconnection there unfortunately translates to our kids and, you know, oftentimes they'll come in with this kind of heightened state. And it's easy to say, I'm not always connecting with my son the way I want to because sometimes I'm tired or overwhelmed and...

Sometimes I'm just like, oh, just sit down and eat something. And it's coming from a person who's consciously thinking about this every single day. So give yourself grace when you can connect and show up fully. It might not be every meal. It might not be every day. But when you can, I really think you're going to see a difference.

Meara (42:35.992)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Meara (42:42.68)
Right.

Maggie (42:56.586)
Okay.

Meara (42:58.006)
Yeah, that's awesome. As we close out today's conversation, we wanted to leave you with this. Nourishment is about so much more than vitamins on the plate. It's about peace in the room. If dinner feels like a battlefield tonight, just remember that tomorrow is a new day to slow down, listen to your child's needs and trust the wisdom that was already placed inside you as a mother. I don't know why I'm so emotional all of a sudden. Good Lord. Cause I love being a mom.

Maggie (43:22.73)
Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (43:24.303)
I'm sorry.

Maggie (43:26.122)
She does this me all the time.

Meara (43:28.012)
And it's Mother's Day weekend, so we're just a couple of crybabies on here. So if you aren't just feeding a belly, you're tending to a soul. So if you would like to dive deeper into Lena's work, she hosts monthly workshops, you host monthly workshops still, correct me?

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (43:30.167)
Yes.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (43:43.062)
Yeah, I just had one yesterday. I'm probably going to take a break next month, but they'll be back.

Meara (43:48.138)
Okay, well she's gonna take a break, but she hosts monthly workshops and has an incredible free guide on how to end Mealtime Battles in five simple steps. You can find all of her guides, her podcast, and her website at LenaLavinsky.com. We've linked that specific freebie in the show notes below. So until next time, keep reviving the old ways in your own modern home. And.

Maggie (44:11.306)
Stay rooted and stay wild. Lena, thank you so much.

Meara (44:13.144)
Thank you so much. Stay wild.

Lena Livinsky M.A., CCC-SLP (44:15.631)
Thank so much for having me.